It's one of the compelling personalities of the revolution in April 1974. Otelo Saraiva de Carvalho says he can look himself in the mirror every day, because we always lived according to his conscience and his values. It is also a man who is not afraid of the words, so he speak without constraints on what he thinks about, what he knows, what he lived, what he won't forgot and about disappoint him.
In the recent celebrations of the 25th of April you decided not to attend, you said that the ideals of the revolution had died as a result of the financial crisis that we are going through.
Otelo Saraiva de Carvalho: The ideals of April 25th do not disappear easily. They persist in the hearts and minds of the Portuguese who lived intensely the revolutionary process that followed. What happen is that have been deeply tainted by the political class that from this period took charge of the fate of the country in terms of political and economic management. However, every day and has now gone 38 years, I am confronted on the street by anonymous people that come to me give a hug and a handshake and ask me to do another April 25th. The Portuguese hold these ideals at heart, this hope, it's alive, and so I refute his claim.
Part of the responsibility may be political, but the Portuguese are not the most involved people in civic terms.
OSC: The people were always conditioned during the nearly fifty years of dictatorship of Salazar who then continued with Marcelo Caetano and so it was a nation that was growing in fear of saying things were wrong, fear of been arrested and that remains alive in Portuguese. When a large public demonstration arises, protesting and challenging the power I think very surprised that there is something germinating. If not for the Armed Forces Movement (FMA) tired of waiting for the government and its policy for the end of the colonial war that lasted 13 years and was impoverishing the country, 40% of the state budget in 1973 was for the defense ministry, Portugal would not be a European geostrategic space, taking responsibility to walk quickly to recover the independence of colonial peoples. The prospect of the government of those days was to keep the colonial war until victory, which was unthinkable. The Communist Party fought for workers' rights too, had hundreds of militants and leaders arrested during the dictatorship who were exiled to Tarrafal, but the Communists and the Portuguese were not going there alone. Only military personnel who considered all limits were exceeded and that an historical intervention was necessary, but nobody else did. If not so, the dictatorship would have continued for many years.
So you think that there is a dictatorship present in terms of mentality? The Portuguese complain a lot, but then do nothing.
OSC: There is a game of the governments, of the past, of the present and those who will come. They know this characteristic of the Portuguese people, when there's a street protest, they say they are right, but everything remains the same. It is a game between astute politics and weak protest; we all know that it all leads to nothing. The power that can actually change things is the military. I'll give you an example, in November last year, was being prepared a manifestation of officers, sergeants and soldiers of the armed forces promoted by their associations, resulting in what is happening in this economical crisis, of course, a journalist of the lusa agency questioned me if I would be there, I said no, for two reasons: one, this week-end I would not be in Portugal, because I was going to give a lecture. Two, even if I was here I will not going to be there, because I'm against demonstration in uniformed military or civilian, in the street. It's the same as being at the level of the workers and their unions. The military is a reserve of the nation, are the last bastion of power and are on its side, it can refuse to act against the people, for that there is the police. The military are the defense of the nation, the regime and the state. One manifestation of the military should only happen when meet the popular aspirations and all limits are exceeded, i.e. the constitution is being put on the shelf by interested parties around and them the concentration should be a military operation to overthrow the government. What I said! In the weeks that followed Freitas do Amaral, Mário Soares and comrade Vasco Lourenço president of "Association April 25th," said much worse, very strong words and it seemed that no one said anything. There was even a group of citizens that filed against me a criminal complaint to the attorney general of the republic claiming that I encourage violence and a coup of the state. The biggest fear of bourgeois power is the military. The people can protest, but there are always arguments. When the military understand that there is a legitimate need to take a stand, power shakes.
However, in a recent interview you said you were sorry for having participated in the 25th of April.
OSC: That was a misunderstanding. When I said that I was taking in account the actual situation of the country after 38 years of revolutionary process with April 25th, the situation is so severe, there are more than two million Portuguese in poverty. The scenario is worsens without great prospects, the country is always giving guarantees to financial and international institutions, all this was not enough against the rising unemployment. If I guessed that 38 years later the door open to hope, to increase the quality of economic, social and cultural development of the people was a panorama of misery, might not have participated in the April 25th, was a relief. I and my comrades of the revolution consider ourselves somewhat responsible for the current situation. We, the armed forces who did the revolution in body and soul risking family, profession and life did it with a generosity of such order to free them from the chains of fascism and allow people to integrate into the level of life other countries and are a responsibility we feel inside. I am sorry; there was the April 25th of 1974, in the days that followed, and an immense joy invaded people after 48 years of being oppressed. If there had not been a revolution people were still be in poverty, but the power had that responsibility. A few days ago I read a poem about a reactionary of April's revolution, it was horrible, friends told me not to pay any attention but eventually it grinds. Back then we intervene with such great generosity, but there we are portrayed as traitors to the motherland. Portugal is in starvation and the captains of April are guilty of that! I wonder if this is what is said by these people echoes in the general public? My hope that is not.
Addressing your visit to Madeira, for the anniversary of 50 years of priesthood of Fr José Martins Junior, how does a priest and a revolutionary become friends?
OSC: A revolutionary priest! (Laughs). I and Jose Martins Junior have many points in common in terms of thoughts and ideals. We also have in common, given his civic participation here in Madeira, a hint of irreverence that unites us, which is common to both. I like him a lot. He is a person of great purity, affirmation and intelligence. It has a large capacity for resilience, given everything that happened José Martins Junior has been persecuted with his church closed, police showed up at the behest of the government and religious entities of Madera and yet he does not stop being who he is and say what he thinks.
But how you two meat?
OSC: I met him in 1976 because I participated in one of two presidential campaigns. In that year José Martins was part of UDP (left party) in the regional parliament of Madera and it was the pastor of Ribeira Seca. When I came to the islands in the Azores could not even leave the air base, hundreds of members of the FLA (Front for the Liberation of the Azores) demanded my departure to the authorities of the military unit, there was a link between the officers and the leaders of this movement back then, I finally decided to leave and decided to come to Madeira and something similar was going to happen also here. Once off the plane in Santa Cruz, was warned by a Major who was waiting for me at the airport at the behest of the then military commander, Carlos Azeredo that I was not authorized to speak publicly, could not even leave the nearby airport. But, I refuse to do the same thing that happened in the Azores and ended up leaving. A glass door that access to the room was broken, because people wanted to be with me. The UDP is one of the smaller parties that supported my presidential campaign put their party apparatus at my disposal and who always accompanied me during the campaign was José Martins Junior, the key man. I've been in Machismo, he gathered people to the rally that we ended up doing always afraid of the military police order to disperse the crowd, so it was done in the evening and clandestinely. At that time, we talked a lot of projects and ideals. I ended up sleeping with fear of reprisals in a Marchesa in a clinic; I know is that I slept well, although I am a Republican (laughs). It was an adventure.
you notice there was an evolution in terms of mentalities in Madeira? From that time until now.
OSC: The people of Madeira maybe even more. The people of the interior of Braganza, Tras-os-Montes and the islands lived a situation of absolute poverty during fascism. In the Northeast there were no roads or clinics, nothing, hence a very high percentage of immigrants who managed to get out. To go by car from Lisbon to Braganza took 10 hours. Madera then it was the same thing. With the April 25th happen a very large opening occurs in the social and economic level. The confirmation of regional autonomy consolidates this freedom, not as great as would desire, as it was our ambition. In Portugal, one lives a bourgeois democracy, parliamentary, poor, which keeps its power at the expense of the people. The political program of the MFA was oriented for parties and I began to argue against that, because I believe that the people would not benefit from this system because the partisan cheerleading only fight in favor of their own interests, in their own class. They do some reforms to keep the people calm, but at the time, the idea was to implement a direct democracy. I was told that was not possible because it was a very big jump from a dictatorship to direct vote, they asked me if I knew of any country in the world that did that, I said no, but I replied: we do it.
38 Years later can have a direct democracy in Portugal?
OSC: I think it is possible, because they are giving up important phenomena were is possible to create mechanisms that can afford to think in a direct democracy. What happened in Iceland that little or nothing has been said is important. It is a country with a brutal economic recovery, enormous, because the people are just 300 000 inhabitants, did not allowed the financial crisis to enter their borders as we are experiencing, called elections, formed a team a credible group of people from the civil society, they elected this government, amended the constitution and are recovering impressively. In Sweden through mobile phones and social networks, a small party with 11 MPs, asks people opinions on a subject that will be debated in the House and defends the idea is more consensual discussed by the majority, even if the MPs are not apologists of this position. Those are the people's interests and not a party.
